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Author: Subject: Duratec install progress - sump construction underway
flak monkey

posted on 29/3/09 at 06:06 PM Reply With Quote
Duratec install progress - sump construction underway

Plodding on with the prep for installing the duratec. Still working on the engine at the moment, but there isnt an awful lot to do now, mainly assembly. Managed to get it up on the engine stand yesterday which makes working on it much easier!

Engine front
Engine front


Engine exhuast side
Engine exhuast side


Rather than start loads of new threads with progress I will update this one. As I am trying to do it well, but on a budget I will also keep a running total up to date with how much its costing. Some may be suprised.....

Anyway. Made and fitted the EGR blanking plate in place of the electronic valve. They are available from Ford and Raceline/SB Dev, but I baulked at paying nearly £40! This one cost me nothing, and 20 mins sweat with a hacksaw and file.

EGR blanking plate
EGR blanking plate


Had an argument with someone on the duratec forum over the merits of lightweight flywheels for road use. IMO a superlight flywheel is overkill and not needed. Especially as they are £200 plus another £200 for a clutch to suit! They are marketed as essential, but seeing as the std 1.8 flywheel only weighs about 6kg is it worth it? What is as yet unproven is that the clutch will stand up to the power, I think it probably will but may not last as long as a HD one.... If not, an uprated cover should do the trick. I will be using the std clutch with a 220mm plate fitted from an early mondeo (same as zetec). If this slips I will re-drill the flywheel to take a HD pinto clutch cover.

Sump - going to use the one which was fitted to my engine, which seems to be a Transit sump and not a mondeo one. The beauty of this is that its level with the bottom of the bellhousing within 2 or 3 mm so doesnt need any external mods. Inside its fitted with a windage tray and forward baffle. Just needs a rear baffle fitting (welding to the windage tray) and it will be just as baffled as the Raceline sump and hold the same amount of oil. I may add some lateral baffles as well for good measure.

Sump inside before mods
Sump inside before mods

Sump inside before mods
Sump inside before mods


Throttle bodies and injectors. Using GSXR 750 (42mm) throttle bodies which I am going to re-space the suit the inlet port spacing on the engine. Hope to get my inlet manifold made in the next couple of weeks, which will essentially be a 5mm steel plate with 4 stubby tubes on for attaching the throttle bodies too. I'll post piccies once I get it done. Again cost is low compared to buying a set of throtle bodies from Webcon or Raceline.

Injectors are mounted direct into the head on the duratec, and as they are bosch ones are an easy upgrade. I have a set of 440cc/min ones on their way over from the states (less than half the price of over here!) . I will then make a new fuel rail (same as I did on the pinto) to suit them and block off the injector ports in the throttle bodies.

Again this was a relativley cheap way of sorting induction and fuel and neat too. More piccies to follow as I get it fitted up.

GSXR 750 throttle bodies
GSXR 750 throttle bodies


Lots of other stuff on the list:

Shortened prop to move the engine right back in the chassis. Needs to be about 3" shorted.

Water pipe to move the inlet on the back of the head to the front to connect to rad.

Hydraulic release cylinder spacer for bellhouing.

Mod exhuast manifold to keep same bodywork exit point, but suit new por spacing of duratec.

Make alternator bracket, also need to get hold of a small denso type alternator to fit on passenger side of engine with a 6 groove pulley on.

Running total currently about £500

[Edited on 21/6/09 by flak monkey]





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dave1888

posted on 29/3/09 at 06:09 PM Reply With Quote
Looks very sexy and the engines nice and clean.






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Keith Weiland

posted on 29/3/09 at 06:11 PM Reply With Quote
This is very interesting, please keep posting details as I am going to be doing this in the future.
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RichardK

posted on 29/3/09 at 06:18 PM Reply With Quote
Me too, cheers David

Regards

Rich





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James

posted on 29/3/09 at 07:15 PM Reply With Quote
Flak,
With my current lack of cash situation I'm living my upgrade life through you!

Keep up the good work. Loving the cash saving but high quality philosophy- just how I want to do mine.


Cheers,
James





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flak monkey

posted on 29/3/09 at 07:15 PM Reply With Quote
Thanks chaps. Will keep this thread up to date with the progress.

Thanks to Fozzie for the sticky





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Xtreme Kermit

posted on 29/3/09 at 07:23 PM Reply With Quote
Top job!

What power do you reckon you will get from the 1.8?

I would love to do a pinto to duratec swap, but I have yet to blow the pinto up

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Benzine

posted on 29/3/09 at 07:44 PM Reply With Quote
Top stuff






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flak monkey

posted on 29/3/09 at 08:02 PM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Xtreme Kermit
Top job!

What power do you reckon you will get from the 1.8?

I would love to do a pinto to duratec swap, but I have yet to blow the pinto up


It's a 2 litre

The oft quoted figure is 195bhp from a stock engine on throttle bodies. If I achieve 180 on a budget I will be more than happy. It will get it on a rolling road once its in and tuned.





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Xtreme Kermit

posted on 29/3/09 at 09:36 PM Reply With Quote
Ah - 2.0 - even better - I misread.

180+ from a stock motor sounds like the way to go.

Thrash it, kill it, replace it with another!

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beaver34

posted on 29/3/09 at 09:50 PM Reply With Quote
looks good, shawspeed do the mounts for duratech, ive got one of there sigma 1600 in a shawspeed car, was looking at the 2.0 to upgrade in power, but i think 175-180 bhp will do me for now, keep up the good work!
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flak monkey

posted on 19/4/09 at 03:11 PM Reply With Quote
The duratec project is going slowly at the moment due to the problems with the pinto. But things are still moving slowly.

Took delivery of the new bellhousing on friday. Suprised me by how light it was. Secondhand off ebay, but looks like its never been fitted. Paid £120 for it so was worth biding time until once came up! Will allow the engine to go right back in the chassis, the back of the block should end up about 3" from the bulkhead by the looks of it.

For reference there are 2 lengths of bellhousing. 173mm and 192mm to suit the different input shaft lengths of the type 9 boxes. However the difference in length is on the back of the bellhousing (where it meets up with the box) so the extra material could be milled off if you have one which is too long, or a 19mm spacer made if you got the short one (if you have access to the equipment of course).

Bellhousing 1
Bellhousing 1


Bellhousing 2
Bellhousing 2


Also taken delivery of the uprated injectors. Decided to fit larger than std ones at this point incase I feel the need to supercharge or tweak more in the future. They are ford racing injectors, direct swap for std ones. (Bosch EV6 for reference). Rated at 39lb/hr (410cc/min) so double the capacity iof the std ones.

440cc injectors
440cc injectors


440cc injector closeup
440cc injector closeup


The cheaper way would have been to use both the std injectors and the bike throttle body ones. But I thought this could look untidy, so decided to import a new set of injectors from the states. £150 including all the charges was cheaper than getting them over here too!

Next job is get the throttle bodies fitted up and the sump mods completed.

More pics to follow!





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coozer

posted on 19/4/09 at 03:30 PM Reply With Quote
Love the way your locosting David, what bellhousing is that?

Where did you get the engine and how cheap?

Steve





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flak monkey

posted on 19/4/09 at 03:42 PM Reply With Quote
Bellhousing a duratec to type 9 one, Titan make them for several people (inc burtons and rally design) as well as RWD motorsport, raceline, dunnell etc. But they all look like they come from the same pattern to me.

Not sure which one I have as its got no markings on it, dont think it makes aby difference!

The engine cost me £400 plus a trip to birmingham to pick it up. Was told about it by a member on here.

Running total is around £520 including the bellhousing and injector upgrade (sold a few surplus parts)

Not much left to buy other than odds and sods. Am keeping an accurate running total though as I am sure people will be interested.

David

[Edited on 19/4/09 by flak monkey]





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rusty nuts

posted on 19/4/09 at 04:35 PM Reply With Quote
David, do you need a starter? I have a s/h one you can have for the price of a pint. Can take to Stoneleigh if you want it.
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flak monkey

posted on 6/5/09 at 07:36 PM Reply With Quote
Big thanks to Mel for the starter at Stoneleigh! Just needs a clean up.

Sourced a very small brand new denso type alternator from a Honda Prelude for all of £20. Rated at 60amps, which is more than enough!

This will be rigidly mounted to the block right at the bottom on the passenger side. Need to figure out how to wire up the 3 wire regulator though. Another job for the coming weeks is make the brackets to mount it properly.

Alternator
Alternator



Also sussed out how to tension the aux belt which drives the water pump and alternator. The 2006 onward 1.8 duratec ford focus is fitted with a spring loaded tensioner. This fits where the power steering pump would normally be on the 2.0 engine. Available from Ford for about £70, but also from the breakers for about £20. The ford part number is 3M5Q-6A228-AD.

Tensioner
Tensioner


Using the std tensioner is a much simpler and cheaper option than offered by several of the duratec companies...especially if you get one from a breakers and make the alternator brackets yourself.

David





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Jenko

posted on 7/5/09 at 05:04 PM Reply With Quote
Great thread, and very interesting.....

Have to ask, are you not worried the injectors will be too big for this engine....I would imaging 250's to be more than enough for duratec on TB's....I would be concerned that they will deliver too much fuel lower down the rev range (when on minimum duty cycle)....I'm using gsxr600TB's on a 200bhp engine, and they are fine.

As said, there could be a good reason for going 410cc, so just asking.

Paul.





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Staple balls

posted on 7/5/09 at 05:06 PM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by flak monkey
Sourced a very small brand new denso type alternator from a Honda Prelude for all of £20. Rated at 60amps, which is more than enough!



where from?






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flak monkey

posted on 7/5/09 at 06:40 PM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Jenko
Great thread, and very interesting.....

Have to ask, are you not worried the injectors will be too big for this engine....I would imaging 250's to be more than enough for duratec on TB's....I would be concerned that they will deliver too much fuel lower down the rev range (when on minimum duty cycle)....I'm using gsxr600TB's on a 200bhp engine, and they are fine.

As said, there could be a good reason for going 410cc, so just asking.

Paul.


Hi Paul,

The reason for going 410cc is twofold.

1. The biggest reason is that I plan to go forced induction in the future and will be looking for 300bhp. This is right on the limit of the capacity of even the 410cc injectors, so it was a case of futur proofing the engine at this point.

2. You shouldnt really run injectors at 100% capacity. 410cc for 200bhp means 75% duty cycle at max power.

They could indeed cause problems at low rpm but the only way to find out is to try them.

Megasquirt reckons my req fuel will be 8.2 (for 14.7 afr) with that size injector on a 2litre engine, which still seems reasonable.

Like I say time will tell...

The alternator came of good old ebay. Listed correctly. Most hondas were fitted with very small denso type alternators from the mid 80's onwards.

David





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beaver34

posted on 7/5/09 at 08:30 PM Reply With Quote
what spec engine are you going for, and what power are you looking for? im looking at building a duratech to replace my zetec se engine over winter, but am wanting to know the limits for pistons rods crank etc...., cheers al
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flak monkey

posted on 7/5/09 at 09:01 PM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by beaver34
what spec engine are you going for, and what power are you looking for? im looking at building a duratech to replace my zetec se engine over winter, but am wanting to know the limits for pistons rods crank etc...., cheers al


I am simply going for a 200bhp spec engine. Std internals on throttle bodies. Realistically though if I see 170-180bhp from the budget option I will be more than happy. After its all fitted and I have had time to save up some more cash then forced induction will be on the cards.

The limit for std rods and pistons is about 230-250bhp. For anything other than the std cams you need pocketed pistons, though the std ones can be machined cheaply. This should see 230bhp.

After this you need to really start raising the rev limiter to unlock the power and the std rods and pistons arent really up to anything over 7000rpm. Forged rods and pistons are readily available, but as always you are looking at about £800 for the set. Add a set of cams, followers and springs and you are soon into the £1500 bracket for that extra 50bhp, so personally I would rather spend that money on a homebrew supercharger system...

There are some good articles on the SBDev site about what mods will give what power outputs.





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beaver34

posted on 7/5/09 at 09:18 PM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by flak monkey
quote:
Originally posted by beaver34
what spec engine are you going for, and what power are you looking for? im looking at building a duratech to replace my zetec se engine over winter, but am wanting to know the limits for pistons rods crank etc...., cheers al


I am simply going for a 200bhp spec engine. Std internals on throttle bodies. Realistically though if I see 170-180bhp from the budget option I will be more than happy. After its all fitted and I have had time to save up some more cash then forced induction will be on the cards.

The limit for std rods and pistons is about 230-250bhp. For anything other than the std cams you need pocketed pistons, though the std ones can be machined cheaply. This should see 230bhp.

After this you need to really start raising the rev limiter to unlock the power and the std rods and pistons arent really up to anything over 7000rpm. Forged rods and pistons are readily available, but as always you are looking at about £800 for the set. Add a set of cams, followers and springs and you are soon into the £1500 bracket for that extra 50bhp, so personally I would rather spend that money on a homebrew supercharger system...

There are some good articles on the SBDev site about what mods will give what power outputs.


thanks, just been on there website, i dont want F/I really, the parts are cheap enough, there are some rods from america for £250, but god knows how good they are

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flak monkey

posted on 11/5/09 at 09:19 PM Reply With Quote
Slight change of plan with the sump. Although the std transit sump is level with the bottom of the std bellhousing, the rwd bellhousings are 27mm shorter allowing more ground clearance with a shortened sump. So its been a case of back to the drawing board (literally) so....

I have been working on a cad model for a new sump this evening. Loosely based on the one CairB made for his duratec, but with a few tweaks.

I am planning on getting all of the parts laser cut and then getting a friend to TIG weld it all together for me. This will hopefully be available as a kit of parts in the future as well for others who want to install the duratec engine (also be an inlet manifold plate available) if all goes to plan. This hasnt been finalised yet I hasten to add!

The large square holes will have a flap fitted to allow oil into the pickup area but not out of it. The baffles all have 1/2" rad cut outs in the corners and the rearmost one one in the middle too. I may add more holes part way up the baffles? Top plate is 5mm, all others are 1.6mm.

Anyone see any major problems? Or indeed have any suggestions for improvement? I am not sure if the rear most baffle is of any use? Would it be worth moving the middle one back slightly and doing away with the back one?

I havent quite finished it yet, as I want to incorporate a plate which also bolts to the bellhousing to make use of the bolt holes and to simply cover the bottom of the bellhousing neatly. If I can work out a way of making it strong enough then it will be strutural too. I also need to put the holes in where the front cover bolts on too.

[see below for pics]

[Edited on 19/5/09 by flak monkey]





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Tim 45

posted on 12/5/09 at 09:43 PM Reply With Quote
Looking good David!

Out of curiosity what changes have you made to the CairB sump?

Based on:

DuratecSumpInside
DuratecSumpInside


I'd have said they were pretty much the same??

[Edited on 12/5/09 by Tim 45]

[Edited on 12/5/09 by Tim 45]






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flak monkey

posted on 14/5/09 at 06:26 AM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Tim 45
Looking good David!

Out of curiosity what changes have you made to the CairB sump?



I have updated the design pics above now.

To be honest there doesnt appear to be much difference, I have tweaked a few things mainly because I am getting the parts laser cut, which opens up a few more possibilities more easily. The last remaining jobs are to decide where to put the dipstick and drain plug and to design in a few features to make it more simple to assemble.

I have now added in another flap valve in the rear most baffle to allow oil to flow forward more quickly under braking. I have also revised some of the baffles slightly.

The top and front flanges are thicker (5mm) as well, allowing them to be ground flat after welding them up, as I have the equipment to do so, meaning less sealer will be neaed to get the sump to seal (there's no sump gasket on the duratec).

I have also added in the windage tray, which is going to get a few more mods to prevent oil climbing the side of the sump under hard cornering.

Talking to CairB he hasnt had any issues with his design on trackdays or the road so its perfectly good as it is. What I am trying to do is develop the design a little more.

Like I said in the original post, all the parts for mine will be laser cut, and a kit of parts will be available for others thinking of installing the Duratec too. I will post more details of this as things progress.

Cheers,
David





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