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Author: Subject: Lotus 32B inspired road car
paddywil
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posted on 27/10/15 at 09:06 PM Reply With Quote
Lotus 32B inspired road car

Hi all,
Its been a long while since I last posted here, but I think its time to restart my dream of building a car from scratch! Having now got a lot more experience around cars, including finishing my first total restoration, I hope that something may actually come of this project. My hope is to build a car similar to the Lotus 32B, adapted for road use, whilst retaining the attraction of the original! It certainly wont be practical, but it will be beautiful! Please keep an eye on this thread, and if you have any suggestions regarding a transaxle gearbox or have experience of building a monocoque chassis and are willing to share please let me know!

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Ugg10

posted on 27/10/15 at 09:18 PM Reply With Quote
Sounds like a great but challenging project.

As for transaxkes have a look at audi a4/6, passat and porsche boxster.

I would strongly recommend reading the iva manual as I think you will identify some real challenges trying to satisfy the iva regs and keeping the lotus 32b style.

Worth also looking up the era hss, similar idea but as far as I know no-one has managed to iva one yet.

All the best and do keep us updated.





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paddywil
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posted on 27/10/15 at 09:23 PM Reply With Quote
Thanks, I shall certainly look into those!

Its been a little while since I last looked through the manual, so will have a few busy evenings...

Not one I've heard of, but i shall take a look!

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Sam_68

posted on 27/10/15 at 09:54 PM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ugg10
As for transaxkes have a look at audi a4/6, passat and porsche boxster.


Or, of course, the Volkswagen Beetle gearbox is pretty much what the original used (albeit with Hewland internals). The old AlfaSud/Alfa 33 box is an option, too, and Subaru engine/transaxle combination might be a possibility.

But speaking of the Porsche Boxster, I came across this Porsche-engined 23 at Castle Combe the other weekend:



And if you're thinking of a monocoque, there's always the old Martyni 23. It's actually not a very good design - it would easy to do better - but it might provide some ideas and inspiration:











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paddywil
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posted on 27/10/15 at 11:13 PM Reply With Quote
Thanks for the photos, definately food for thought! Over the last few week I've managed to accrue a large number of photos of the car in various states of completeness, so something to work from...

Also with the gearbox, that sounds like something I definately want to look into.

Although obviously not in keeping with the period feel, I'm looking at using a modern zetec engine here simply for convenience, as im fairly familiar with them...

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Nickp

posted on 28/10/15 at 06:25 AM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by paddywil

Although obviously not in keeping with the period feel, I'm looking at using a modern zetec engine here simply for convenience, as im fairly familiar with them...


Sounds like am interesting and challenging project!

If it's convenience you're after then wouldn't it make sense to just use the engine that comes with the chosen transaxle? The VAG 1.8T or V6 on an Audi transaxle would fit the bill and there should be plenty of info out there about transplanting it

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Sam_68

posted on 28/10/15 at 06:26 AM Reply With Quote
What material are you thinking of for the monocoque?
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WallerZero

posted on 28/10/15 at 07:48 AM Reply With Quote
I'm very interested to see how this project goes. I'd love a road going racecar, forget the practicalities!

I think ford released a road going Formula Ford car not long ago. Looks incredible but did appear to essentially cover the wheels better and stick some lights on

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posted on 28/10/15 at 09:33 AM Reply With Quote
Thanks for all the interest! I'll do some research on the engines you've suggested, might well fit the bill.

I'm planning on using aluminium for a large portion of the monocoque, with the possibility of using steel in some locations, sucu as where the suspension mounts are.

Haha my family really don't do practical cars, bearing in mind my Dad's daily driver is a noble m12 :p

They did, same sort of thing as I'm planning on doing here - it's worth looking at the vanwall GPR V12 too, as this is a similar concept.

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posted on 28/10/15 at 11:52 AM Reply With Quote
I'll hopefully be uploading some sketches over the next couple of days for what I've got in mind with regards to wheel guards, lights etc...

In the meantime, my current list of transaxle gearboxes to consider stands at:

Porche boxter
Vw beetle
modified subaru
Audi a4/6

If you've got any other suggestions please let me know!

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Ugg10

posted on 28/10/15 at 12:32 PM Reply With Quote
In terms of transaxles, the Boxster, the Audi A4/6 and Passat 6 speeds are all basically the same box but with slightly different gear change mechanisms and comes in a variety or ratios.

Remember the beetle has the engine behind it so if you are looking for mid endine then the gearbox will need flipping and so may need things like oil vents/feeders/plugs etc. reworking, this is what the big boys who build Ultima/T70/GT40's do with the Porsche 911 G50 box.

There is the oldschool UN1 box as found in some Renaults and used in some GT40 replicas and the Lotus Europa/Esprit.

The Scooby box is a 4wd box so the drive the rear axle need to be locked off, the SDR V-Storm does this.

The Alfa 33/Alfasud also has a transaxle for it's boxer engine IIRC as well.

Depending on your idea of fun you could used a bike engine and link the sprocket to a "normal" RWD diff either via a cush donut or a very short propshaft. The Fisher Menace and the MEV Atomic used this arrangement. can be very light, sequential gears but you will need to engineer a reverse probably via an electric motor for IVA.

For monocoque design have a look at Tornado's GT40, they have a spaceframe, an aluminium and a carbon version of their tub so you can compare the designs. Also the GTM libra has a composite monococque design. And there is also the Quantum Extreme what has a stainless folded monocoque design. Robin Hood also tried a folded stainless design but did not sell many IIRC.

Last thought for now would be to look at the engineering of the Spire GT as this can use the Audi drive train in the rear. Also dig out some old info on the Edge Devil which is a more modern version of what I think you are trying to achieve, a bit chunky but you may get some ideas from what they did.

Very last thought, have you thought about making the monocoque out of a composite sandwich structure using woven fabric skins (getting the weave directions right between the layers is the key) and a polyeurothane foam core (Rohacel is the gold standard but expensive), this could produce a very light and stiff tub and does not have to be too expensive. Subfrmaes can then be bolted onto the front and rear to hold the oily bits and has the potential, with quick release plugs/lines, to allow quick changes of the rear engine cradle. This was used in the Scultpural Engineering Larini (later the GTM Ballista) and is used in Yacht building.

Hope this brain dump helps.





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paddywil
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posted on 28/10/15 at 01:13 PM Reply With Quote
What an excellent brain dump that was!

I hadn't thought of the need to flip the box for the mid engine layout, definately food for thought!

The Scooby box is looking appealing at the moment, with the mod required seeming to be relatively common.

I'm quite familiar with the Tornado GT40, (having wanted one for a very long time!) Ill have to dig out all the old pics I have...

The Edge Devil is sort of what I'm aiming for, though as you say it is a little 'chunky' for my liking. Definitely something to use for ideas though.

I can't honestly say that I'd thought of building the monocoque like that, but its a very interesting concept... The method sounds like it would definately keep costs down, and be a pretty flexible method of building. I like the sound of the ability to carry out easy engine swaps - endless possibilities!

Thanks for all that, I can see a lot of reading coming on!

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posted on 28/10/15 at 01:26 PM Reply With Quote
Of course, it would always be possible to build a spaceframe chassis instead... what do people think with regards to one or the other?
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Sam_68

posted on 28/10/15 at 01:55 PM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ugg10
Remember the beetle has the engine behind it so if you are looking for mid endine then the gearbox will need flipping and so may need things like oil vents/feeders/plugs etc. reworking...

With the Beetle box, you just flip the crownwheel from one side to the other. No need to invert the whole box.


quote:
Originally posted by Ugg10
....have you thought about making the monocoque out of a composite sandwich structure using woven fabric skins (getting the weave directions right between the layers is the key) and a polyeurothane foam core (Rohacel is the gold standard but expensive), this could produce a very light and stiff tub and does not have to be too expensive. Subfrmaes can then be bolted onto the front and rear to hold the oily bits and has the potential, with quick release plugs/lines, to allow quick changes of the rear engine cradle. This was used in the Scultpural Engineering Larini (later the GTM Ballista) and is used in Yacht building.


Personally, I'd go for routed-and-folded pre-manufactured composite sandwich panels, as per the early Lotus F1 carbon tubs and Westfield WiSPER. Much lighter and more consistent quality than trying to 'roll your own' with wet layup. Pre-manufactured panels, such as Cellite, will usually have aluminium or nomex honeycomb cores, which are more suited to automotive use.

Routed-and folded aluminium sandwich panels (as described in Tony Pashley's M/C Engined race car book) are an option too - and certainly better than a single-skin aluminium monocoque.

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posted on 28/10/15 at 02:03 PM Reply With Quote
Thanks, I'll see if i can find a copy of that book
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jps

posted on 28/10/15 at 02:29 PM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by WallerZero
I think ford released a road going Formula Ford car not long ago.


http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-review/ford/formula-ford-ecoboost

I was briefly confused by this thead - as I saw a 23 replica at Stoneleigh (last year) and the photos below are of 23's, but the 32b is more akin to the 'Haynes Single Seater' idea...

Might be worth looking at that - as I guess people were discussing the relevant problems it may have thrown up at IVA?

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posted on 28/10/15 at 02:47 PM Reply With Quote
They were posted more to look at the monocoques than anything else I think...

The Haynes single seater is certainly more like what I'm aiming for, essentially a 1960s style formual car, adapted for street use.

There are plenty of problems which could be thrown up by the IVA Although I think none of them will be insurmountable....

Just to clarify, this is what I'm aiming for

https://c2.staticflickr.com/4/3181/2911835272_bff876e44f.jpg

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russbost

posted on 28/10/15 at 03:14 PM Reply With Quote
The Furore goes thro' IVA without any real issues, but then I designed it that way from the start, there are a no. of traps to avoid, make sure you have a good read of the IVA manual BEFORE starting anything as modifying later is always 10 times harder. If you want to PM me feel free, happy to offer guidance

I did think of doing something similar myself, using riveted aluminium monocoque, but adding modern bonding techniques - you should remember that most aluminium monocoques were only really intended to do one season of racing & tended to get a bit "floppy" in later life, but many of the principles are as used in aluminium monocoque, or semi-monocoque planes & some of those are 60 years plus old & going strong! Unfortunately time constraints mean I doubt I'll ever do it, certainly not at present.





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paddywil
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posted on 28/10/15 at 03:33 PM Reply With Quote
PM sent

The 'floppiness' of one of these after a few years is something that worries me, but I was intending on using modern boning techniques as well... Wheteher or not that would lead to a long lifespan - time will tell!

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jps

posted on 28/10/15 at 03:43 PM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by paddywil
They were posted more to look at the monocoques than anything else I think...



Makes sense. Is it worth looking at the Pembletons? Similar 'cigar' shape - although I appreciate very different drivetrain layouts..!!!

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posted on 28/10/15 at 03:46 PM Reply With Quote
Just a little different but definately worth a look haha
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Ugg10

posted on 28/10/15 at 05:13 PM Reply With Quote
I always thought the edge devil chassis with an v8 engine and a Auto Union d-type body would sell well if it could be made iva compliant.





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snapper

posted on 28/10/15 at 09:46 PM Reply With Quote
Your first issue is the required light positions
For IVA your going to have to build pods to raise the headlight height





[Edited on 28/10/15 by snapper]





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posted on 28/10/15 at 10:42 PM Reply With Quote
Thanks for the diagram, I don't think its going to be too much of an issue, I'm planning on mounting them in a manner similar to that on the Westfield and gbs zero
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Sam_68

posted on 29/10/15 at 07:24 AM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by jps
I was briefly confused by this thead - as I saw a 23 replica at Stoneleigh (last year) and the photos below are of 23's, but the 32b is more akin to the 'Haynes Single Seater' idea...


Doh!

Sorry... my fault! I was being repeatedly numerically dyslexic and persistently reading 32b as 23b!

Fortunately, all the technical advice still stands (except that a Subaru or Porsche engine wouldn't work too work, I don't think - wrong shape and it would sound all wrong.

I'd definitely be doing the tub in route-and-fold sandwich panels, though: the design and fabrication of a '60's-style single-seater tub in this material is really simple.


Funny how many people I've come across through the years who've wanted this sort of single-seater road car. There's got to be an unexploited market for a simple design, out there... maybe needs to be my next project.

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