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Author: Subject: E10 In Petrol cars
jester
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posted on 23/6/21 at 07:59 PM Reply With Quote
E10 In Petrol cars

How will this effect your Car

I see there was a post all ready started but that was in sales

Not in Engine

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theconrodkid

posted on 23/6/21 at 09:22 PM Reply With Quote
no idea why i put in the for sale section





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coyoteboy

posted on 24/6/21 at 01:02 AM Reply With Quote
Toyota Celica GT4 (Highly modified) - wouldn't use it, but wouldn't use 95RON anyway.
Nissan 370Z - bone stock, can't run on 95RON, requires 98+ anyway.
Pug 306 Diesel - no effect
Toyota Hilux Surf Diesel - no effect.

That's me sorted then





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bi22le

posted on 24/6/21 at 07:16 AM Reply With Quote
Audi A4 TDI - Not affected
Pug 206 HDi ( soon to be pug 208 electric) - Not affected
RAW Striker 4age ITB - Mapped on 98+ so not affected
Honda CBR500RR - Not affected.

I'm all good, and as I try to hug the odd tree I am all for it. It may even mean that super is more commonly available.





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David Jenkins

posted on 24/6/21 at 07:19 AM Reply With Quote
When I visit my daughter in Australia I usually hire a car, so I get to see their petrol stations - they usually have 3 petrol pumps, E10, standard, and super. E10 is the cheapest, standard costs a bit more, and super is the most expensive.

I don't see why the UK can't be the same: E10 for those that can use it, standard for those that can't, and super for those with higher-tuned engines.





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nick205

posted on 24/6/21 at 08:30 AM Reply With Quote
Skoda Kodiaq 1.4 TSI 2017 - E10 compatible
Push bike A - no worries
Push bike B - no worries
Bus (work commute) diesel - no worries
Train (work commute) electric - no worries

Pretty sure I'm with David Jenkins here - let filling stations sell the range and customers/drivers chose appropriately. I appreciate there's many customers/owners who may not be aware (or even understand) what to chose, but the world has to progress.

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BenB

posted on 24/6/21 at 08:40 AM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by David Jenkins
When I visit my daughter in Australia I usually hire a car, so I get to see their petrol stations - they usually have 3 petrol pumps, E10, standard, and super. E10 is the cheapest, standard costs a bit more, and super is the most expensive.

I don't see why the UK can't be the same: E10 for those that can use it, standard for those that can't, and super for those with higher-tuned engines.


What are these petrol station things you talk about?
Round here they're all disappearing, it's quite ridiculous. Yesterday I was discussing with a friend the disadvantages of EVs in relation to having to plan ahead when you were going to charge but how it's now like that with petrol stations in NW London. I commute to work each day (or rather did until I launched myself down some cellar steps breaking my hip in the process- so no driving for another 3 weeks). On the commute I either drove directly past or could access (with just a few minutes deviation) 3 petrol stations. 2 have closed already and the 3rd is due to close next year.

End result is I now have the choice between 4 petrol stations a number of miles away. And all have major issues with traffic associated with them. 2 are on the North Circular (terrible most of the time), 1 is on the A5 (Kilburn High Road)- even worse traffic, the other is on a major route but it's in a one-way section of a road that often gets jamned and then I'd have to take a 30 minute deviation to get back home...... Logically I'd decide on a time when the traffic isn't so bad and get into the habit of filling up then but for 3/4 of these stations there's never a good time. I guess I'll have to take the fourth on an evening I finish late, just sucks heading out of work and heading in completely the wrong direction and making a 45 minute journey out of a 20 minute one just to get some flipping fuel.

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sdh2903

posted on 24/6/21 at 08:54 AM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by bi22le

I'm all good, and as I try to hug the odd tree I am all for it. It may even mean that super is more commonly available.


Iím intrigued as to how you think itís helping the planet?

The ethanol content reduces the efficiency of the fuel, ie less bang for your buck, less mpg, reduced performance and you end up using more fuel which offsets the gains anyway.

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nick205

posted on 24/6/21 at 09:08 AM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by sdh2903
quote:
Originally posted by bi22le

I'm all good, and as I try to hug the odd tree I am all for it. It may even mean that super is more commonly available.


Iím intrigued as to how you think itís helping the planet?

The ethanol content reduces the efficiency of the fuel, ie less bang for your buck, less mpg, reduced performance and you end up using more fuel which offsets the gains anyway.



Fair comment

Will that not serve the longer term effect of encouraging vehicle makers towards EVs (or other) and away from internal combustion engines?

Will it not also serve to encourage vehicle users towards EVs (or other) and away from internal combustion engines?

Governments may well be making a stear here to get populations to make the change.

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liam.mccaffrey

posted on 24/6/21 at 10:22 AM Reply With Quote
Considering I work at a refinery and actually make the stuff I really should know more about it





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SJ

posted on 24/6/21 at 10:45 AM Reply With Quote
quote:

Considering I work at a refinery and actually make the stuff I really should know more about it



Presumably you can just fill up for free at work

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nick205

posted on 24/6/21 at 11:33 AM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by SJ
quote:

Considering I work at a refinery and actually make the stuff I really should know more about it



Presumably you can just fill up for free at work



Nice perk of the job if you could - I'd imagine our dear government would be all over that with some form of tax!

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coyoteboy

posted on 24/6/21 at 11:33 AM Reply With Quote
quote:
End result is I now have the choice between 4 petrol stations a number of miles away. And all have major issues with traffic associated with them. 2 are on the North Circular (terrible most of the time), 1 is on the A5 (Kilburn High Road)- even worse traffic, the other is on a major route but it's in a one-way section of a road that often gets jamned and then I'd have to take a 30 minute deviation to get back home...... Logically I'd decide on a time when the traffic isn't so bad and get into the habit of filling up then but for 3/4 of these stations there's never a good time. I guess I'll have to take the fourth on an evening I finish late, just sucks heading out of work and heading in completely the wrong direction and making a 45 minute journey out of a 20 minute one just to get some flipping fuel.


To be fair that's just where you live. For me (and most of the population outside of cities) all the petrol stations are still open, but they always were miles away and I have no traffic because I live in the fields for a reason - I hate traffic and people


quote:

Iím intrigued as to how you think itís helping the planet?

The ethanol content reduces the efficiency of the fuel, ie less bang for your buck, less mpg, reduced performance and you end up using more fuel which offsets the gains anyway.



But it doesn't offset the gains if you run the numbers and calculate the equivalent MPG based on the non-renewable carbon emissions...:
Fuel Type
Fuel Type


First MPG column is the approx mpg you get with your lack of thermal energy content (ie a 0.6mpg drop on a 30mpg car). And the right hand MPG column is the effective MPG, as calculated from the lower fuel efficiency and the higher percentage of renewable fuel combined from the perspective of carbon emission (i.e. even though you're getting 29.4mpg in reality, that's still equivalent to your car doing 32.6mpg on normal fuel). The numbers rather obviously equate to approximately a 10% efficiency increase in terms of miles/CO2 output.

You can calc it directly by doing Carbon Equiv MPG = MPG * ((Eth%*20)+((1-Eth%)*25) * (1/(1-Eth%))

As the %Eth increases, the effective MPG goes up = at 50% eth, you're looking at 48.6ish mpg equiv, despite a real world drop to 27mpg from 30.

You just have to hope that the production of ethanol (including growth, processing and transport) is less than the cost of mining the crude and it's processing and transport, or the picture gets muddier. I don't have numbers on that.


[Edited on 24/6/21 by coyoteboy]





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Mr Whippy

posted on 24/6/21 at 11:59 AM Reply With Quote
Personally I think it's just flogging a dead horse. We all know were cars are going like it or not.

The biggest impact in the future will be classic & vintage cars and how or if they can be supported without prohibitively expensive fuel costs. I got rid of my Landy which I spent 5 years rebuilding to just how I wanted it purely due to the fact it cost £80 a week on fuel which was painful. Lets face it, petrol stations are in it only for the little money they make and if the demand is not there, they will vanish and very quickly too. They're already hit hard by the supermarkets under cutting them and those only sell the most popular fuels, my local Asda only sells 95 & diesel. I haven't come across super unleaded for sale in many many years.

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coyoteboy

posted on 24/6/21 at 12:08 PM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Mr Whippy
Personally I think it's just flogging a dead horse. We all know were cars are going like it or not.

The biggest impact in the future will be classic & vintage cars and how or if they can be supported without prohibitively expensive fuel costs. I got rid of my Landy which I spent 5 years rebuilding to just how I wanted it purely due to the fact it cost £80 a week on fuel which was painful. Lets face it, petrol stations are in it only for the little money they make and if the demand is not there, they will vanish and very quickly too. They're already hit hard by the supermarkets under cutting them and those only sell the most popular fuels, my local Asda only sells 95 & diesel. I haven't come across super unleaded for sale in many many years.


Up in Aberdeen? That place is filled full of ferraris and lambos, where are they getting their super? Presumably not Asda I guess.

Super is available at all the major supermarkets that I've visited here in the central belt?





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Westy1994

posted on 24/6/21 at 12:36 PM Reply With Quote
there is a great book on the subject called
classic cars and modern fuel, written by paul ireland
the book is basically all the research that manchester uni did a while back.

i used to read forums such as this one and crapped myself about using e10, i have learnt a lot reading it,
i have no connection to the book by the way, just someone who likes the facts from someone who has done extensive research on the matter.





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Westy1994

posted on 24/6/21 at 12:38 PM Reply With Quote
correction, its classic engines, modern fuel - my mistake.





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coyoteboy

posted on 24/6/21 at 04:41 PM Reply With Quote
quote:

i used to read forums such as this one and crapped myself about using e10, i have learnt a lot reading it,
i have no connection to the book by the way, just someone who likes the facts from someone who has done extensive research on the matter.


Exactly. The thing is the good folk making it have put a lot of time onto developing something with maximum market availability and minimal risk of damage to accidental users. They state "may not be suitable" to make you stop and think and to pass ultimate liability over to you, but in reality the risk is limited to some tiny fraction of the population. My GT4 would get it if it wasn't mapped for 99RON, and to be honest it might get it anyway at times.

Yet folk run WVO through cars to save a few pence on the pound &#128514;





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steve m

posted on 24/6/21 at 06:12 PM Reply With Quote
Wasnt this argument raging back in the days when Leaded fuel stopped and EVERYONE in the country with a classic or old car were complaining ?

Yet now, what did they do? just stick some additive in, to replace the lost lead, something i still did, even though my old xflow, had hardened seats

This new E10, is supposed to be cleaner, so for the planet cant be a bad thing, i dont have any issue either way, as my Mondeo complies with the new fuel,

Its not as if we can all jump up and down and say we dont want it, as that argument will end quickley ...................





Thats was probably spelt wrong, or had some grammer, that the "grammer police have to have a moan at




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jester
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posted on 24/6/21 at 10:44 PM Reply With Quote
I am fine with my daily driver Golf TDI

The problem maybe with the striker.

When I brought it I said to the owner what fuel does this xflow use is it unleaded with additive.

The owner said no just super unleaded.

It is tuned engine it's now a 1700 with stage 2 head & fancy cam & twin 40 dcoe's.

So must have had the vales done

My Jester run's on 4 Star at the moment the one I brought to build myself 20 years ago I only got it started again a few years back.

The mobile tuner said stick with 4 star as it's been sat so long.

I am still working on the bodywork plus IVA cost put that one on hold.

So I brought a second one that was built by someone else & SVA.

That one looks to run on unleaded fuel with additive.

Not started yet as I have stripped the car right down

So will have to see how this works out on the cars

That's why I started the post to see what trouble's/Or not other people may have with the new E10 Fuel on there cars

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Westy1994

posted on 25/6/21 at 02:34 AM Reply With Quote
i had another quick refresh of this book today, as it has been a while since i read it.

there is a lot of data in it, but the way i read it, its no way as bad the the internet would make out, there are one or two caveats though.

as long as you use the engine on a regular basis, for me thats about once a week, you will be ok, for those that use e10 or e5 in a car that gets laid up over winter or is in long term storage, the ethanol will separate out in what is called a phase separation. this then causes, if you have a steel fuel tank, the tank to rust as ethanol is hydroscopic and is more dense than petrol so sinks, the other is rubber pipes. the only modification on my car is the rubber pipes, which i swapped out for r9 types, i used the cohline stuff but others may have the same spec.

i think most of us have alloy tanks, so less of a concern, but there is limited data on ethanols effect on an alloy, again though if you use the car often we should be ok.

i did a lot of my own research on ethanols effect on plastics, as i have nitropyhl plastic floats in my webers, the data was vague, but there were many sites listing the effects on most plastics, which suggested that it did not have much of an effect, but i stress it was only two sites.

i joined the books bulletin board, where you can post something to the author, he answered most of my questions and i even had to correct him on something in his book...

main website here by the way



https://classicenginesmodernfuel.org.uk/Default.aspx?dyn_menu_main menu=1000001

lots of info on the board bit of it.





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AdrianH

posted on 26/6/21 at 08:39 PM Reply With Quote
I am trying to figure is the gates fuel hose 23932 is suitable for E10 fuel and if J30 R6 hoses that I used during build are OJK, or if I need to change all out to J30 R9 or later?

I see that soldered joints may suffer erosion so carb'd soldered floats may be at risk. I use copper fuel lines and a bit unsure if I need to replace them, I guess there are other suitable fuel lines I could use now.

The old 1991 1.8 CVH engine as fitted to the Sierra is a bit to old to be in any of the check you engine databases.

Adrian





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CosKev3

posted on 26/6/21 at 10:03 PM Reply With Quote
Just use super unleaded and don't worry about it!
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Westy1994

posted on 27/6/21 at 10:13 AM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by AdrianH
I am trying to figure is the gates fuel hose 23932 is suitable for E10 fuel and if J30 R6 hoses that I used during build are OJK, or if I need to change all out to J30 R9 or later?

I see that soldered joints may suffer erosion so carb'd soldered floats may be at risk. I use copper fuel lines and a bit unsure if I need to replace them, I guess there are other suitable fuel lines I could use now.

The old 1991 1.8 CVH engine as fitted to the Sierra is a bit to old to be in any of the check you engine databases.

Adrian


i am just posting my own experiences here but, i used to run cheap 3 quid a metre stuff from fleabay, this lasted 3 years on e5 fuel, the proof of its degradation was clear to see in my filters along the route with every one of them full of very small black bits, that when inspected was just a mushy mess of what used to be the lining of the pipes. i then swapped that out for r6 spec, this faired better based on the filter test, and it was only the pipes that were subject to constant washing of fuel, as in from the tank to the filter then to the pump, the rest after the pump were fine, there were less bits in my filters than with the cheap rubbish but bits were still in there none the less. this year i swapped them once again, this time for r9 spec, not enough time has elapsed to give a report on this, but i do expect this to last quite sometime. i should point out i did remove the tank and clean this out in case for some reason there was debris in it, there wasnt as it happens.

as far as solder goes, i have to say i did think this was affected, the internet told me so, however a post on that board i posted about above suggests the author thinks any degradation may be no worse than what you may expect using non ethanol fuels and the average wear and tear on such an old float is likely to have gone through over what 50 years or more. i can not say if he is correct as yet as i havent done my own tests, i may well do this once e10 is being sold. we did have a member on wscc whose car set on fire the other year, during the rebuild he found that one of the sides of one brass float had leaked and was full of fuel, thus sinking and causing a high level in the float bowl, i said at the time i thought this may have been due to ethanol, but now i am not so sure.

i also run copper pipes as the hard lines, i did remove one section when the r9 stuff was being fitted and found little to no adverse affects internally, but again this is a sample size of one here so check your own to be safe and we are still getting e5 around here so i will be keeping a close eye when e10 is sold.

and coskev, i tend to agree but not everywhere will sell it, and when they do the prices will be raised, since they want you to use e10, my local station havent sold normal fuel for years and years now, and when questioned on if they will still stock e5 when the e10 comes in he said no, why would i...





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CosKev3

posted on 27/6/21 at 10:47 AM Reply With Quote
What brand of fuel is he selling?

All Shell/BP/Esso garages I've been in sell super unleaded.

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