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Author: Subject: 1.8 K series thrown cam belt. Damage likely or not??
FFTS

posted on 31/8/10 at 10:05 PM Reply With Quote
1.8 K series thrown cam belt. Damage likely or not??

l just got back after a thuroughly fast enjoyable blat including fish and chips in settle and Macidees hot chocolate all round back in Chorley about 10pm. Went in the Pheonix and we gave the cars quite a thrashing. Got a charge light on the dash juys coming to Chorley, heard a bit of a clunk while sat at the lights. Checked it out at MacDonalds and couldnt see anything untowards. We parted our ways and I drove home. About a mile from home another clunk and whhhhiiirrrrrr the engine stops and I freewheel to a side street. Get the bonnet up and theres my cam belt sat in the engine bay and it must have fell out with the pullies as they weren't hanging out together. The alternator belt had left home alltogether and was nowhere to be seen. My guess is that the fan belt snapped at the lights and hit the cam belt knocking it mostly of the front of the vernier pullies and the drive home finished it off. There was no nast noises from the engine so I'm hoping there isnt any valve damage etc. It's a 1.8 K series rover engine. Anyone know what the likelyhood of damage is and how to find out?





Chris.

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bigrich

posted on 31/8/10 at 10:11 PM Reply With Quote
probably not what you want to hear, but almost certainly you will have valve damage. sorry mate







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MakeEverything

posted on 31/8/10 at 10:17 PM Reply With Quote
Depends where the camshafts were when the belts snapped.
Take the head off and have a look. It will be worth it for the sake of a £40 gasket set.





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RichardK

posted on 31/8/10 at 10:17 PM Reply With Quote
I'd say you'd be extremley lucky if you got away with it

Sorry m8

Rich





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MikeRJ

posted on 31/8/10 at 10:22 PM Reply With Quote
Sadly you're are virtually certain to have bent at least some of the exhaust valves

Take the plugs out and have a look, any damage to these means pretty terminal engine damage; the heads can snap off the valves and embed themselves into the piston if you are really unlucky. Otherwise you could time the engine up with a new belt and do a compression test, but don't get your hopes up.

New valves aren't particularly expensive though, and it's not such a bad job.

[Edited on 31/8/10 by MikeRJ]

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DRC INDY 7

posted on 31/8/10 at 10:28 PM Reply With Quote
definately bent the valves! question is how many head off to find out its the only way


when its all done put a timing belt cover on it amazing how man cars i see with out them just asking for problems like you have had or a stray stone jamming the works up

[Edited on 8/31/2010 by DRC INDY 7]





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Chippy

posted on 31/8/10 at 10:57 PM Reply With Quote
As said above really, it's an interferance engine, so almost certain to have damage of some sort. Ray





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adithorp

posted on 31/8/10 at 11:23 PM Reply With Quote
Almost always bend valves but I have seen a couple get away with it. Fit a new belt and try the compresions (or just try starting) is the fastest way to find out.

I take it you've no belt covers. I'll never understand why people risk not having them.

adrian





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FFTS

posted on 31/8/10 at 11:45 PM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by adithorp
I take it you've no belt covers. I'll never understand why people risk not having them.

adrian


Didn't come with any and didn't know they would be beneficial.. You learn ever day hey

I still have the belt but would need to know how to do the timing and replace the belt.





Chris.

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MikeRJ

posted on 1/9/10 at 12:33 AM Reply With Quote
Like this. Idealy you should get yourself a cam locking tool since it makes things simpler and easier, but it's possible to do it without if you are very careful.
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richardlee237

posted on 1/9/10 at 05:07 AM Reply With Quote
Don't know if this is of any help but I have a Rover 420 with a good engine which would be available in a week or so.
Done about 80k if I remeber correctly.

yours for scrap money plus a beer token.

Car is MOT and Tax so you could drive it to its final resting place.

Pick up from Salisbury





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britishtrident

posted on 1/9/10 at 06:13 AM Reply With Quote
Don't try a compression test it will cause much more serious damage ---

Most likely at the moment just a few bent valves --- for some strange reason usually an odd number like 5 (!) .

Combustion chamber and valve guide damage is more than possible.

From your description the probable cause is the bottom pulley wasn't fitted properly.
The pulley and all the sprockets need carefully fitted with a tiny dab of Loctite when refitted.


Now the good news 1.8 heads are the same as 1.6 and 1.4 heads ----no difference.
However heads from engines fitted with coil packs have significant differences from those with distributors. the oldeer type heads can be used on later engines with a bit of work,





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adithorp

posted on 1/9/10 at 06:55 AM Reply With Quote
"...Most likely at the moment just a few bent valves --- for some strange reason usually an odd number like 5 (!) ...."

I thought you knew everything. It's the evil valve fairy's!

adrian





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britishtrident

posted on 1/9/10 at 07:58 AM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by adithorp
"...Most likely at the moment just a few bent valves --- for some strange reason usually an odd number like 5 (!) ...."

I thought you knew everything. It's the evil valve fairy's!

adrian


Caused me a lot of head scratching with words mutter like how the F**** is that ;-)

Usual test with the head off is poor some parraffin in the ports and see where it pours out.





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welderman

posted on 1/9/10 at 08:05 AM Reply With Quote

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FFTS

posted on 1/9/10 at 08:52 AM Reply With Quote
What a wonderful place to visit to cheer oneself up up when one has just broke ya mota

So many options! The engine has caterham cams, vernier pullies, fettled bike throttle bodies with the original injectors revs to 7800rpm (or did ) has an Emerald 3 ECU. I need to make sure whatever I do I can keep this performance (or more) and utilise the bits that help it have it. So the options for performance and low cost.

1. Exchange head and use existing cams.
2. Replace engine and swap bits.
3. Check and replace valves and do head.
4. Any other series engine same fitting?? (2.0 turbo rover?)
5. V V T although the builder did say there was a problem to fit on in on the size of the infection. Couldnt the existing TB's/injection go onto a V V T?
6 Will a T series fit? does it have different engine mounts etc?

I leave it in the hands of you wise jedi motor lords.

Ta veri much.

[Edited on 1/9/10 by FFTS]





Chris.

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Jomibo

posted on 1/9/10 at 09:19 AM Reply With Quote
I doubt an auxillary drive belt failure (fan belt) would fetch the cambelt off, as its sat behind it behind its own cover. In my experience its more than likely going to be the cambelt tensioner failing which would throw the belt off. Or possibly the bottom pulley as previously mentioned.
Bent valves are a certainty

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MikeRJ

posted on 1/9/10 at 09:25 AM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by britishtrident
Now the good news 1.8 heads are the same as 1.6 and 1.4 heads ----no difference.


Except the early 1.4 heads which have different (and poorer flowing) ports, though it would still physically bolt on AFAIK.

quote:
Originally posted by FFTS

5. V V T although the builder did say there was a problem to fit on in on the size of the infection. Couldnt the existing TB's/injection go onto a V V T?



Yes, they will bolt on the VVT. However, the cams in the VVT are completely different; you wouldn't be able to use your Caterham cams, and you'd have to use an ECU that could control the valve timing. In standard form the VVT heads have larger valves and better flowing ports, but the standard head can be re-worked to be better still.

The T series is a very heavy engine, and physically quite a bit larger than the K series. Whilst it's a pretty good lump in a normal road car, it's not an option I would ever consider for a lightweight 7.

The best course of action is to whip the head off, assess the damage and go from there. It's surprising how much damage can be repaired; my brother bought a damaged head for his Lotus Elise which had dropped a valve and made a mess of one of the combustion chambers. It was a nicely ported head from one of the high power variants so worth salvaging, and a local specialist made a cracking job of welding up the chamber and installing new valve seats etc. You could hardly tell it had been damaged after, and from memory it cost him something like £150-200. Probably not worth it if it's an otherwise standard head though.

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Liam

posted on 1/9/10 at 09:38 AM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by britishtrident
Don't try a compression test it will cause much more serious damage


Out of interest, what further damage could be done that has not already ocurred in the original incident? Cos that's exactly what I did on my Omega V6 tintop . A camshaft pulley came loose, said hi to the adjacent one, then locked up and ate the cambelt

As I had a new cambelt kit I fit it to do a compression test. That revealed I'd gotten away with it on one bank (ironically the bank on which the camshaft pulleys came together) but had bent valves on the other bank. So fortunately I only had one head swap to do. What nasty further damage might I have done, though?

[Edited on 1/9/10 by Liam]

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coozer

posted on 1/9/10 at 09:41 AM Reply With Quote
Sorry to tell you but mine let go pulling away from the lights at very slow speed, the resulting damage was 14 valves bent with two of them so bad they broke the casting around the guides.

£400 for a new head with new stretch bolts and klinger gasket.

It then went on to give me another 60K miles of trouble free motoring.





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Bluemoon

posted on 1/9/10 at 09:51 AM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Liam
quote:
Originally posted by britishtrident
Don't try a compression test it will cause much more serious damage


Out of interest, what further damage could be done that has not already ocurred in the original incident? Cos that's exactly what I did on my Omega V6 tintop . A camshaft pulley came loose, said hi to the adjacent one, then locked up and ate the cambelt

As I had a new cambelt kit I fit it to do a compression test. That revealed I'd gotten away with it on one bank (ironically the bank on which the camshaft pulleys came together) but had bent valves on the other bank. So fortunately I only had one head swap to do. What nasty further damage might I have done, though?

[Edited on 1/9/10 by Liam]


You could have made it worse; brocken+bent valves moving, lost valve bouncing around in the cylinder ect...Things you want to minimize to stop further damage (depends how luckly you were the first time round )..

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britishtrident

posted on 1/9/10 at 10:27 AM Reply With Quote
The heads are priced higher than whole engines so my advice would be look for a complete 1.4 engine (or buy a cheap Rover 25 at auction and sell the bits) but swap the head over. Just swap the head complete with cams and get it running ---- the cams are very easy to swap at a later date.

VVC engine swap isn't a good idea they aren't any better just have better mid range driveability and are much more complex and your cams won't fit.

If your ECU uses the cam sensor you ideally you need a post 1999 head (EU3 "coil pack head) these use an impoved (automatic) cam belt tensioner and slightly wider cam belt for longer cam belt change intervals. The two types of cam belt tensioner require a simple mod to the head to swap over.

These engines are very easy to work on but the workshop manual procedures must be followed to the letter.

It is a common misconception that new head bolts are required --- this is not the case officially Rover state they can be re-used 5 times. When fitting new or refitting old head bolts the bolts should be cleaned with kerosene, gas oil or wd40 and allowed to drip dry. They should then be tested to see they will screw down the full length of the thread by hand far enough to clamp the head ---- any burr or tightness on the thread will render the initial torquing of the head bolts invalid. When cleaning the bolts I chase the threads of the bolts with a fixed size hex nut to avoid problems.

For an engine overhaul manual ebay for Rover Rave CD ---- read it before you start stripping the engine.

The Draper timing belt locking tool isn't essential but helps particularly if you are swapping the heads straight over and only costs a couple of quid off the net.

With this tool you can fit the timing belt at the top then slip it over the bottom sprocket last --- which is much less of a fiddle.

What is essential is a good low range 3/8" drive torque wrench for the head bolts and some Loctite for the sprocket bolts.


Last bit of advice is check the bottom sprocket and pulley for damage or slack fit on the crank.

[Edited on 1/9/10 by britishtrident]





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adithorp

posted on 1/9/10 at 12:38 PM Reply With Quote
Personally I'd put a belt on, turn it by hand without plugs to feel for anything catching and then with to feel for compression and if it felt ok try starting it.
I've never had one that turned that didn't either run or just needed a few valves (you'll feel the lack of compression). If you feel anything tap or lock up, then strip it down instead of starting.
If it's not too bad and just bent valves (9/10times is) then replace them and rebuild as it is. I'm sure we can walk you through it.

adrian





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perksy

posted on 1/9/10 at 06:32 PM Reply With Quote
Some good info' above

If as suspected you have bent a few valves, Inspect the valve guides very carefully
Have seen engines that haven't had the Valve guides checked/replaced fail shortly afterwards

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FFTS

posted on 1/9/10 at 10:23 PM Reply With Quote
UPDATE!!!Bottom pulley fell off and nothing present to keep it on and hence the belt parted company. Head now off and all valves made some contact with the pistons but the good news is no contact with the bores at all and no loose bits broken off the valves so I guess another head will suffice as I wouldn't think the marks on the pistons should cause any real problems.

4 like this..







[Edited on 1/9/10 by FFTS]





Chris.

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