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Author: Subject: T89 Designs - Project SSL Build Diary
Doctor Derek Doctors

posted on 26/11/14 at 01:01 PM Reply With Quote
T89 Designs - Project SSL Build Diary

After getting the bug for sprinting at the end of last year I have decided to design and construct a single seater sprint car for 2016 using the "Locost" ethos.

Eventually the aim is to sell the plans for the car as I will be completing full CAD models and drawings for every part, as well as mainting a full BOM and cost list.

My aim is to combine the 'Locost' homebuilt ethos with the style of a Formula Student car Small and Super Light (hence SSL).
Using as many off the shelf and Locost parts as possible (such as Wilwood Powerlite calipers for example) that people already know about and trying to design it to use the minimal amount of specially made parts and tooling you wold find in the average LCB members garage is also a priority.
At university we managed to build a Blue Book compliant FS car that weighed in at 220Kg so adding an extra 30Kg for a 4cyl Bike engine (rather than a single cyl' I think 250Kg is achievable but <275Kg is likely.

The first job has been to build somewhere to build it by creating a chassis bench in my workshop (dubbed Mega-bench). a 2m x 1m work surface will allow me to contruct the car (minus wheels) on the bench.

Sarting Base is 2x Ex BAR Honda tool boxes:
Mega Bench 1
Mega Bench 1


A Steel Frame is added on top and levelled:
Mega Bench 2
Mega Bench 2


Finally the rather lovely 2m x 1m sheet of 3mm thick hardened aluminium was added as well as an end support:
Mega Bench 3
Mega Bench 3


Currently the main area of progress is the drivetrain, I have decided to use virtually the same parts as my '7', partly because I know them well and partly because I already have a spare set. So it will use (to start with anyway) an 893/919 Fireblade engine, mounted longitudinally driving a Freelander Diff running into Westfield Megablade driveshafts with Westfield hubs in modified Sierra Drum brake bearing carriers. Rear suspension will be double wishbone with bespoke uprights.
Front suspension will be double wishbone but I am aiming to use Rally Design Ally uprights, hubs and Wilwood Calipers.

Most other stuff is up in the air at the moment but I'm also working on a "blown" venturi tunnel for the underside.

Here a are some pictures of the very early scheme for the layout, just so I could size everything up.

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More updates soon hopefully.





Designer and Supplier of the T89 Designs - Single Seater Locost. Build you own Single Seater Racecar for ~5k.

Plans and Drawings available, U2U or e-mail for details.

Available Now: The Sports Racer Add-On pack, Build a full bodied Sports Racer for Trackdays, Sprints and Racing.



www.t89.co.uk
www.racecarwings.co.uk

callan@t89.co.uk

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Ivan

posted on 26/11/14 at 03:01 PM Reply With Quote
Will watch this with interest.
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DW100

posted on 26/11/14 at 04:12 PM Reply With Quote
With the engine in this configuration I seem to remember seeing something about problems with very short propshafts or directly bolting the engine output shaft to the diff.

I think this is why people tend to use chain drive.

Love the work bench though

[Edited on 26/11/14 by DW100]

[Edited on 26/11/14 by DW100]

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Doctor Derek Doctors

posted on 26/11/14 at 04:55 PM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by DW100
With the engine in this configuration I seem to remember seeing something about problems with very short propshafts or directly bolting the engine output shaft to the diff.

I think this is why people tend to use chain drive.

Love the work bench though
]


I've seen Spire GTR's running this style and they do O.K. Theres no reason why it shouldn't work especially if done right. I'm certainly not intending to bolt the diff directly to the engine output flange. Do you have any links to information on these problems? I always like to have a read.

Also chain drive diffs are not exactly "Locost" and I already have a Freelander Diff.

I think the key is to make something that people can get going with and then upgrade, used freelander diffs are ~80 on ebay, any builder can get one and then get the car running, then you could upgrade to a Quaife ATB later if you want (as I did for 600). With a chain drive set-up you need to fork out 500+ just to get the basic set-up to get the car running.

At the moment my entire powertrain cost has been:
893 Fireblade Engine (from a Westy): 250
Complete Exahust system: 150
Freelander Diff: 80
Megablade Driveshafts and Hubs: 50

So my near complete drivetrain comes in a 530, thats pretty much what I would have had to pay for just a chain drive diff set-up on its own.

Chain drive diffs also put alot more requirements onto the mounting set-up in terms of accuracy and strength, whereas mounting a standard diff with a casing is pretty simple stuff.

Thanks for the workbench compliment, the hardest thing to do was lift the engine up onto it... not because of the weight but because it scratched the lovely surface!





Designer and Supplier of the T89 Designs - Single Seater Locost. Build you own Single Seater Racecar for ~5k.

Plans and Drawings available, U2U or e-mail for details.

Available Now: The Sports Racer Add-On pack, Build a full bodied Sports Racer for Trackdays, Sprints and Racing.



www.t89.co.uk
www.racecarwings.co.uk

callan@t89.co.uk

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Ugg10

posted on 26/11/14 at 04:58 PM Reply With Quote
The Fisher Menace and MEV Atomic also used this type of set up but with the engine almost next to the driver. May be worth contacting Mark Fisher or Stuart Mills/RTR for info on thier setup.





---------------------------------------------------------------
1968 Ford Anglia 105e, 1.7 Zetec SE, Mk2 Escort Workd Cup front end, 5 link rear
Build Blog - http://Anglia1968.weebly.com

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DW100

posted on 26/11/14 at 05:22 PM Reply With Quote
Ok can't seem to find any references now and have found details of old formula 750s with gearbox bolted direct to diff. So maybe I dreamt it.

Chain diffs can be done locost, have a look at most bike engined single seat hillclimbers. Most tend to use a Fiesta diff, a couple of pillow blocks to mount it to the frame and a can over the diff to hold the oil in. you can use a split sprocket bolted direct to the diff.

[Edited on 26/11/14 by DW100]

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ceebmoj

posted on 26/11/14 at 06:25 PM Reply With Quote
Looks good, can't weight to see the updates.
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Ugg10

posted on 26/11/14 at 07:19 PM Reply With Quote
Iirc the menace had a vey short Prop shaft swith a rubber cush drive between the engine sprocket and the sierra diff. I think there was also a hyabusa menace that had a freelander diff in itas well, think this was documented in ppc at the time.





---------------------------------------------------------------
1968 Ford Anglia 105e, 1.7 Zetec SE, Mk2 Escort Workd Cup front end, 5 link rear
Build Blog - http://Anglia1968.weebly.com

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SCAR

posted on 26/11/14 at 07:44 PM Reply With Quote
You can get a short prop with from Paul at Spire sportscars just up the road from Derby. You may also need a stand off adaptor for the clutch (we did for a 2007 Blade engine)

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ettore bugatti

posted on 26/11/14 at 08:04 PM Reply With Quote
Interesting!

Doesn't the sprint class go to 600cc and then next to 1100?

Cann't wait to see what you will come up with suspension wise.

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Doctor Derek Doctors

posted on 26/11/14 at 08:15 PM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by ettore bugatti
Interesting!

Doesn't the sprint class go to 600cc and then next to 1100?

Cann't wait to see what you will come up with suspension wise.


Yeah, not decided which way to go yet but my thinking is that if I make it to take a 1000 a 600 will definitely fit in but if I build it round a 600 now I could be snookered later.
I suspect the decision will be made by whether a CBR600 or GSXR1100 come up at the right price first.

The suspension won't be anything too mad although I am working on my own machined front uprights that will be direct replacement for the RD items but allow adjustment of the steering arm position to correct the bump steer and Ackerman geometry.

It's the undercar aero were we are going to let loose, a full 'blown' Venturi tunnel is the ultimate aim.

[Edited on 26/11/14 by Doctor Derek Doctors]





Designer and Supplier of the T89 Designs - Single Seater Locost. Build you own Single Seater Racecar for ~5k.

Plans and Drawings available, U2U or e-mail for details.

Available Now: The Sports Racer Add-On pack, Build a full bodied Sports Racer for Trackdays, Sprints and Racing.



www.t89.co.uk
www.racecarwings.co.uk

callan@t89.co.uk

NOTE:This user is registered as a LocostBuilders trader and may offer commercial services to other users
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Doctor Derek Doctors

posted on 26/11/14 at 08:16 PM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by Ugg10
Iirc the menace had a vey short Prop shaft swith a rubber cush drive between the engine sprocket and the sierra diff. I think there was also a hyabusa menace that had a freelander diff in itas well, think this was documented in ppc at the time.


Cheers for the info, I will have a look into these cars. My initial thoughts were for a very short Cush drive.





Designer and Supplier of the T89 Designs - Single Seater Locost. Build you own Single Seater Racecar for ~5k.

Plans and Drawings available, U2U or e-mail for details.

Available Now: The Sports Racer Add-On pack, Build a full bodied Sports Racer for Trackdays, Sprints and Racing.



www.t89.co.uk
www.racecarwings.co.uk

callan@t89.co.uk

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Doctor Derek Doctors

posted on 26/11/14 at 08:19 PM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by SCAR
You can get a short prop with from Paul at Spire sportscars just up the road from Derby. You may also need a stand off adaptor for the clutch (we did for a 2007 Blade engine)

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Thanks for that picture, have been googling for one similar this afternoon. Yes I think Spire will be an early port of call.





Designer and Supplier of the T89 Designs - Single Seater Locost. Build you own Single Seater Racecar for ~5k.

Plans and Drawings available, U2U or e-mail for details.

Available Now: The Sports Racer Add-On pack, Build a full bodied Sports Racer for Trackdays, Sprints and Racing.



www.t89.co.uk
www.racecarwings.co.uk

callan@t89.co.uk

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43655

posted on 26/11/14 at 08:20 PM Reply With Quote
I'm curious about your underfloor setup, what is the theory behind having a sort of back to front diffuser at the front?
Surely this will just result in a high pressure area all the way back to where the hoop is?
I would have expected a flat floor to curved diffuser would give the best result.
however this is based only on what i've seen, I don't have much experience with flow sim or aerodynamics

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Doctor Derek Doctors

posted on 26/11/14 at 08:36 PM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by 43655
I'm curious about your underfloor setup, what is the theory behind having a sort of back to front diffuser at the front?
Surely this will just result in a high pressure area all the way back to where the hoop is?
I would have expected a flat floor to curved diffuser would give the best result.
however this is based only on what i've seen, I don't have much experience with flow sim or aerodynamics


It's a Venturi tunnel based on that of a Lotus 79, the air is massively accelerated in the centre section creating low pressure and thus downforce. The front does create some lift and the opening needs to be tuned carefully. The next step is the 'blown' tunnel like Indycars had in the 90's, the exhaust is blown into the front of the tunnel so the front can be further closed off to reduce lift while maintaining the flow through the Venturi.

I would like to try and make it work just to see if I can really.





Designer and Supplier of the T89 Designs - Single Seater Locost. Build you own Single Seater Racecar for ~5k.

Plans and Drawings available, U2U or e-mail for details.

Available Now: The Sports Racer Add-On pack, Build a full bodied Sports Racer for Trackdays, Sprints and Racing.



www.t89.co.uk
www.racecarwings.co.uk

callan@t89.co.uk

NOTE:This user is registered as a LocostBuilders trader and may offer commercial services to other users
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SCAR

posted on 26/11/14 at 09:08 PM Reply With Quote
A problem with mounting a bike engine north south in a single seater is that the chassis still ends up being as wide as a two seater due to almost the entire engine being located to one side of the cars centre line. If your target is a very narrow (single seater) chassis you may have to mount the engine centrally and offset the diff and run unequal length drive shafts. Also because blade engines really like to run their original airbox they end up being quite tall so for good aero ideally need to be located directly behind the driver.
You are welcome to visit our shop and look over our part built Spire

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Doctor Derek Doctors

posted on 27/11/14 at 10:30 AM Reply With Quote
Its not much but at least I have "broken ground" now. Hopefully when the reast of the driveline is returned to me from its recent use at a trade show I can fully lay out the rear end.

Description
Description






Designer and Supplier of the T89 Designs - Single Seater Locost. Build you own Single Seater Racecar for ~5k.

Plans and Drawings available, U2U or e-mail for details.

Available Now: The Sports Racer Add-On pack, Build a full bodied Sports Racer for Trackdays, Sprints and Racing.



www.t89.co.uk
www.racecarwings.co.uk

callan@t89.co.uk

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bart

posted on 27/11/14 at 04:00 PM Reply With Quote
hi
the answer to some of your questions depend on exactly what you intend to do with the finished car.
if its just sprint / hill climb does it required reverse , a lot of race types do now.
especially if its aimed eventually at the road.
if its pure race and you stick with chain drive 275-325 kg is just achievable with some major work to keep the weight down
for road then 425-525 kg for a target is achievable , remember formula ford cars run approx. 450kg . ( I know steel wheels ect )
I am building a very similar car but my aim is at the track day / road area. ( it is also aimed to allow bigger drivers )
I looked at the layout you are proposing and ended up going for an east> west config due to offset load in a single seater as previously stated.
also watch the feet position regarding the front axel line re regs
if you want to see the pictures of mine here is the link

http://www.locostbuilders.co.uk/forum/50/viewthread.php?tid=194783

if you want further info u2u me

[img] later build front view
later build front view
[/img]

engine in frame with diff
engine in frame with diff

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SCAR

posted on 27/11/14 at 04:24 PM Reply With Quote
Nice work, I think mounting the engine in an east /west aspect with offset chain drive makes the most sense in a rear engine single seater The second photo shows the advantage of the resulting narrow chassis which should give better aero and weight distribution. Although the rgb cars are wider as they have to be two seater they still changed to this arrangement as the chain drive significantly reduced transmission loses. Is this completely scratch built? What are you going to do for bodywork?

Edit Checked out your build thread will follow with interest

[Edited on 27/11/14 by SCAR]

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43655

posted on 27/11/14 at 07:41 PM Reply With Quote
interesting, thanks, never seen it before.
Definitely sounds like something you'd need flow simulation or considerable real world testing to implement properly

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Doctor Derek Doctors

posted on 28/11/14 at 08:33 PM Reply With Quote
To answer the debate about Longitudinal vs Transverse mount the engine in Longitudinal mount requires no more width than my shoulders (I have wide shoulders which means I need a wide car) so the car wont be any wider than with a transverse layout, the battery, radiator, fuel tank and other bits will be offsetting the weight. As I previously mentioned though it definitely wont be having a chain drive as I don't have the money to spend on one and it doesn't fulfill the ethos of the project.

As for the total weight, we built and MSA compliant sprint car, which was 220kg with a 30Kg single cylinder engine, so adding an extra 35kg for an I4 and a bit extra for extra chassis and aero 275kg is definitely doable.

Anyway, I got a bit of time to get started this evening, I mapped the car out on the bench and tested it for fit. The chassis is definitely big enough for me and the engine which was my first worry and the engine clears the main chassis beams which was the second main area of question.

The exhaust nicely clears the predicted chassis triangulation when fitted in the forward facing position.
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The radiator isn't in the ideal location for cooling but will be good enough for 1 minute sprints.
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The red marking on the bench show the width of the chassis and how the engine still sits within the single seater roll cage width.
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Designer and Supplier of the T89 Designs - Single Seater Locost. Build you own Single Seater Racecar for ~5k.

Plans and Drawings available, U2U or e-mail for details.

Available Now: The Sports Racer Add-On pack, Build a full bodied Sports Racer for Trackdays, Sprints and Racing.



www.t89.co.uk
www.racecarwings.co.uk

callan@t89.co.uk

NOTE:This user is registered as a LocostBuilders trader and may offer commercial services to other users
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bart

posted on 28/11/14 at 09:04 PM Reply With Quote
looking good
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Doctor Derek Doctors

posted on 2/12/14 at 07:29 PM Reply With Quote
Got a bit more time in the workshop today.

Cut and tacked together the main section of the chassis, this will allow me to sort the seating position and thus define the roll hoop heights and also work out the positioning of the main components for the driveline (especially the diff) and the pedal box and steering rack at the front end.

Once this has been done I'll feed this back into the CAD model to update the design, I've already made a few changes from the initial CAD model to aid assembly and welding.

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Designer and Supplier of the T89 Designs - Single Seater Locost. Build you own Single Seater Racecar for ~5k.

Plans and Drawings available, U2U or e-mail for details.

Available Now: The Sports Racer Add-On pack, Build a full bodied Sports Racer for Trackdays, Sprints and Racing.



www.t89.co.uk
www.racecarwings.co.uk

callan@t89.co.uk

NOTE:This user is registered as a LocostBuilders trader and may offer commercial services to other users
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bart

posted on 2/12/14 at 08:27 PM Reply With Quote
still looking good
I fitted my steering wheel assembly and clocks today plus a load of fiddly bit's that take hrs. then don't look like you have done f all .
keep going > there are dark days ahead

what the regs regarding feet position re pedals . I mean feet position re front axel line .



[Edited on 2/12/14 by bart]





BE ALERT > BRITAIN NEEDS LERTS

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Doctor Derek Doctors

posted on 2/12/14 at 08:46 PM Reply With Quote
quote:
Originally posted by bart

what the regs regarding feet position re pedals . I mean feet position re front axel line .



[Edited on 2/12/14 by bart]


Regs say that feet must be behind the front axle line, the front axle line is on the very front of the chassis (the front wishbone tubes are perpendicular to the car centreline). It's going to be a tight fit for my legs, certainly I don't think it would be comfy for anything longer than a sprint.





Designer and Supplier of the T89 Designs - Single Seater Locost. Build you own Single Seater Racecar for ~5k.

Plans and Drawings available, U2U or e-mail for details.

Available Now: The Sports Racer Add-On pack, Build a full bodied Sports Racer for Trackdays, Sprints and Racing.



www.t89.co.uk
www.racecarwings.co.uk

callan@t89.co.uk

NOTE:This user is registered as a LocostBuilders trader and may offer commercial services to other users
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